Tag Archives: therapy

A Patient Cured is a Customer Lost (about ethics in therapy and coaching)

Dear reader,

This came across as I was sipping my morning coffee. In therapy and coaching, there are numerous examples of unethical practices and behaviours. One of them is surely keeping clients in therapy or coaching process longer than necessary and useful for them and sometimes these intentions might be profit driven.

When I deliver trainings in Solution Focused Practice for professionals around the EU and UK, I often tell them that if they want to become rich, they have to change to another modality. SF process is brief and if one is surviving on clients only, one might either become really good at constantly and frequently attracting new clients, or make their living elsewhere (or be unethical, which I will not consider at all atm).

Solution Focused Practice will invite you to think about your preferred future. It will help you describe new ways of living for yourself and might open up new possibilities of a future you consider worth living. It will not tell you what to do and will not provide an explanation of why you haven’t managed to get there yet (or reversed, why you have been in the situation you do not want to be in). The research across cultures, countries and settings shows to have lasting effects comparable to any other type of therapy or coaching, with the difference that you arrive at your desired outcome faster. So why do more, when you can do less? Why spend half of your life in therapy if there are other, faster and lighter options with the same outlooks?

And one more thing re below picture. Therapy and coaching in my modest opinion, are not business services. They should not correlate to one’s ability to pay or afford it. The practitioner should always strive to be brief – not do one session more than what is absolutely necessary. And the “necessity” should always be determined by the client, not your expert opinion. So when the patient feels well, they should not be given extra drugs “just in case” or when the client feels they are able to move on or live their life in the way that is right for them, they should not be imposed another session “just in case”. If they ask for it, that’s a different thing altogether.

So whenever you meet a therapist or coach who will tell you in advance how many sessions it will take, walk away. They have no ways of knowing and their theories are merely theories – they help us think, but not always act.

Some Monday, huh? Wish you a good week ahead,

Biba

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Borrowed from Facebook.

 

Therapy doesn’t work. Coaching doesn’t work either. Clients work!

Dear reader,

in the field of helping professions, there’s a constant battle and rivalry between different approaches about which one works better, has longer lasting positive changes, is associated with better outcomes. There are so many theories about how human mind works, how our brain works as well as theories about behavioural, emotional and cognitive systems, concepts, maps, etc. We’ve got millions of pages written on expertise in different diagnoses, relational problems and family patterns. I don’t mean to be rude but

this is such bullshit.

None of the approaches work. Also none of the approaches doesn’t work. In reality, it doesn’t really matter. Because the one who work here are clients. The ones who make changes are clients. The ones who assess whether something is working in their life (or not) are clients and only clients. I find it ridiculous when professions try to beat each other by proving whose theory is correct. Every theory is correct until it is proven otherwise. We might as well say that every theory has chances of being incorrect. So why all that fuss about trying to explain human behaviour and why trying to analyse the underlying causes for unwanted situations? It only makes sense if we believe in expertise. That we or somebody else knows why something happened and can suggest what we might do in order to stop that happening now and in the future. Yet probably there aren’t many people (if any) who would be able to clearly see all the existing circumstances that influence current situation as well as predict the factors that might have an impact. Let alone to explain the reasons and to offer a correct conclusion on how to improve.

Less is more. To do more with less intervention is an approach that respects and allows clients to utilise what they already have. In my opinion at least, simple approaches are better than complex ones. Simple, but not simpler than simple. Not the same as easy!

Too bad that our society is full of experts of various kind. Take a company for example. When problems arise and company ends up in crisis, we have business analysts, financial analysts, counsellors, risk assessment agencies, coaches, management advisors and many more people, who make a living based on companies trouble. It so often happens that millions are spent on expert studies that result in no change. And it is also very often that the company is blamed for no change, because it didn’t follow expert advice.

This is how people make money. This is not how useful change happens.

In therapy and coaching we have a similar phenomena. Sometimes people are kept in the process of counselling for years, sometimes deliberately, sometimes voluntary. I’m not saying that approaches used in therapy and coaching do not work. Neither am I saying that they do work. Clients work. And it is abusive, disrespectful and actually a crime to keep clients in the process longer than it is absolutely necessary. Every session should be seen as a potential last session and it should take up not even one session more than it is necessary.

So who is it to decide what is necessary? The experts? Experts on whose life?

Who is an expert of your life? Marketing agencies? Media? Social beliefs?

Should be you.

Biba

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Slide used as training material in our Coaching for Change project

Almost live broadcasting from sunny England

Dear reader,

Long time no hear. Since I moved to England, looks like I’ve been absorbed and swallowed into the British way of life and work. Kidding, only a bit, as I do not work 12 hours a day (yet). I find it immensely useful and encouraging when working with people who show dedication, passion, are helpful and looking for solutions and ways forward instead of looking for reasons to quit. Luckily here in London, there is such an atmosphere.

Currently, I’m seeing clients who responded to the Open Call and am working on the programme for the Second Professional Solution Focused Training in Slovenia in 2017. Since September, apart from being in London most of the time, Iz was also in Brugge, Bucharest and Malmo. My life is collected and summed up in a suitcase and a huge handbag that is only about one month old, yet already has some heavy marks from the airports, railways, coffee shops, pubs or double-deckers. In December we’ll start working on our second international project Coaching for Change 2 and I’m aiming high, possibly to make it a worldwide project. This is why I’ll be going to New Zealand in March 2017 to deliver a workshop about it at the AOTEAROA NZ conference.

It is nearly three years since I first heard about Solution Focused (SF) Approach. And the more I get to know it, the more I love doing it. Solution Focused Approach is simple to learn, yet not easy to perform. In Malmo meeting someone very distinguished and experienced SF practitioner said that it’s like chess – one learns the figures and moves pretty quickly, yet to become a chess master it takes hours of practice. The same is with learning SF – it can only be learned through practice. Reading and writing about it certainly helps and contributes to one’s understanding and knowledge, but in order to be able to have a solution focused therapy or coaching conversation it takes practice.

Why is it worth the efforts? Because it makes a difference. Because it is radically different from other approaches. Because it is associated with good outcomes. Because it transforms organizations and changes lives. And borrowing its tools and techniques gives people an opportunity to make a positive difference. In their environment, in the lives of others as well as their own. And this is big. For some even something worth living for.

 

London Calling! And an Open Call to experience SFBT conversations

Dear reader,

Tomorrow I’m partly moving back to London (UK) for one year. It’s actually huge news, as I’ll be attending a Diploma in Solution Focused Practice, hence becoming a Solution Focused Brief Therapist. I’m burning enthusiasm and energy! But I need your help.

You see, what practitioners say is not the same to what practitioners do. Talking about therapy or coaching is nowhere near to doing either of it. One cannot learn how to facilitate useful conversations from books alone. It takes a lot of practice.

So I’m moving to London for this particular reason. I reached a certain point in my life where I am proud of my work as a trainer and a coach and I trust my clients to have all the resorces necessary to make a change they want to see. So when the student is ready, the teacher will appear, they say. Ribalon’s second season is slowly closing, as is 2016. This year we launched the first Slovenian professional training in Solution Focused Practice and we splendidly coordinated and carried out our first European international project Coaching for Change. Both promising projects give me confidence that there’s a bright future for Ribalon and for Solution Focused Brief Therapy (SFBT) in Slovenia. Like at the very beginning, I still very much believe SFBT is radically different to any other approach to coaching and therapy. And I want people to experience it, make use of it and learn how to benefit from it. So it’s only natural to return back to practice and sharpen my skills so I carry out my mission the best I can, to do SFBT justice.

I will be surrounded by many people in London, who are eager to see me succeed, perform well and who will assist me in my professional development. Meaning, they will closely monitor my work with clients. And I cannot do any work without my clients. My clients are my best teachers and the only true stakeholders to assess whether our work has been useful. I can’t create opportunities alone. Nor can I make a positive difference to anybody, without clients.

This is a call and an invitation for you, who are following this blog and for those you know, who are looking for opportunity to make a difference in their own, or their significant others lives. I’m inviting you to join this journey as a client and to experience the magic of SFBT yourself and contribute to its spread.

Simply click on the link below (a document with more detailed information) and apply. I would be honoured, if you would forward this Call to anybody whom you wish the best and would like to see them discover or find what they are looking for.

OPEN CALL for participants to be engaged in SFBT conversations

Many thanks and – see you soon!

Biba

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It’s not a goodbye. It’s a new hello!

I suck at saying goodbye: EBTA 2015

Ask, and you will be answered. Step out and you will be noticed. Do good things and good things will come back.

This is a message from this year’s annual European Brief Therapy Association Conference that was held in Vienna from 11th till 13th September. I was sent there with support from my English institution and my main supervisor. Just a couple of days prior to the conference I got an email from my Hungarian friends and coaches, inviting me to join a workshop on team coaching straight after the conference with one of the best coaches from Switzerland and Hungary. I was delighted and excited about both of these events and had it hard waiting to start.

My dear reader, which is your preferable: to be surprised or to make others surprised?

If I have to choose, I like the latter better. I love doing something for my significant others and enjoy planning it, keeping it a secret and at last, surprise them. It might be a small thing, or a big one, doesn’t matter, I quietly scream out of joy when I feel the passion that drags me to do it. So I dug up that my supervisor (and a dear friend) has birthday right after the conference. Since he’s a really modest and quiet man, but with a great mind, he didn’t say anything. We organized him a small surprise party and made a photo album for him. Though I had no idea what and how it will happen, the end has been what we hoped it would be: warm, supportive, loveable, friendly. Others who are close to him joined in this surprise and together we were able to do it just right. Happy bday C.!

Apart from this, I offered to give an open space at the conference. The proposed topic was transferring Solution Focused knowledge to the next generation. In case you are not familiar with open space, it is a very useful setting when you want to use the potential and creativity of your attendees. I use it all the time in my workshops and trainings. It has four principles and one law. The four principles go as follows:

  1. Whoever comes are the right people.
  2. Whatever happens is the only thing that could have happen.
  3. Whenever it starts is the right time.
  4. When it’s over, it’s over.

Additionally, there is the law of two feet, which means that if for any reason you feel you can’t contribute to the group of don’t get enough from it, use your two feet if you have them and go someplace else.

So I had my open space. Surprisingly many people came. I asked them to place on an imaginary scale to see where we are in terms of experience. It turned out the situation was about 50-50. I was amazed about how much willingness there was to offer support whenever and wherever needed and how it was a precious experience for both groups – they could both learn from each other! From this open space and talk over dinner, I am proudly to present my additional supervisor and many international partners. I’ll soon open another subpage and list their names and organizations, so that you can look them up if you’d like to see how big the international dimension is. Ribalon is growing!

One thing I’m not really proud of, but do it regularly, is that I always leave without notice. It’s a strange habit, because I’m really lousy at saying goodbye. So I left the conference without saying goodbye to anyone. In this manner, I believe, we are still somehow connected and when we meet again, it will be as if we never parted. So please forgive me my dear SF friends if I didn’t say goodbye – I never do. And it was not just rude to you – I do it to everybody. But now I miss you all …

Since Wednesday I’m back home. Vienna and Budapest have left a remarkable footprint. Apart from professional development, I’ve noticed one small thing that is different now. I’ve become much nicer to random people. Before I was reserved or didn’t pay much attention, but now I’ve become nicer and helpful to complete strangers. Simply because why not to be nice. And this makes a HUGE difference. Suddenly people around me have changed. Just today, as I went to the supermarket, a guy hit my car on the parking. My reaction was kind. I surprised myself totally. And like it a lot lot. A lot! My car might disapprove.

So let’s see where the road continues to lead us. Next Wednesday I’ll have a workshop in my hometown. I’m really curious about how the group will react within this new habit and setting … 🙂

knitting

One more thing I suck at, here’s my first go of knitting at the EBTA conference workshop. Wonderful instructors and facilitators though!

May I Present to You …

A Certified Solution Focused Practitioner! I recently came back from England and brought an important paper in my pocket. My first part of solution focused training is behind me and I’m now officially fully qualified to pursue Solution Focused Practice.

The difference for me is rather minor, but it makes huge difference when I present my work and qualification to others. Clients usually don’t mind as well, they are more interested in the outcomes. However other practitioners of all kinds are VERY interested. And I think this is a good sign, they should be, because it does matter where you’ve been trained, by whom, how long and what the structure of your training was. You don’t want to be coached by someone who has only pursued a brief training on a weekend seminar, do you?

So for you dear fellow workers, who are in the helping professions and others who are interested, here’s what my training so far looked like:

Prior to entering the Solution Focused training, I was already engaged in working with students. Counselling and help has been offered through the university tutor system and I was the head of tutors for students with disabilities. I’ve been doing it for 8 years and have been granted two faculty awards for my work.

As I’ve told you in a past post, a miracle has happened and SF found me. My training at BRIEF (London, United Kingdom) has lasted from March 2014 until April 2015. Though I haven’t been in London the whole time, meanwhile I’ve participated in European Brief Therapy Association Conference 2014 in the Netherlands, Solution Focused Brief Therapy Association of America’s 2014 conference and additional training (not included in my primary training at BRIEF) and SOL CEE Conference 2015 in Hungary. And I was at home, working with my clients.

In total, so far I’ve experienced more than 150 hours of intensive training in Solution Focused Practice, about 30 hours of supervision and more than 120 hours with clients (only individual clients are included in the number, not the workshops). I’ve been really lucky to be trained or coached by the world’s famous Solution Focused Therapists and Coaches: Chris Iveson (my number one consultant and supervisor), Harvey Ratner, Evan George, dr. Peter De Jong, dr. Heather Fiske, dr. Harry Korman, dr. Janet Beavin Bavelas, Katalin Hankovszky Christiansen, Marco Matera, dr. Susanne Burgstaller, Hannes Couvreur and have sought consultation and guidance from dr. John Wheeler, dr. Mark Beyebach, Randa Fent, dr. Alasdair J. MacDonald, dr. Lance Taylor and Anne-Marie Wulf. I’m omitting the official titles other than PhD’s, because there are so many and I will probably make a mistake listing all of it. And because they made a difference to my life as people, not as doctors and specialists. What’s consisted a huge amount of my professional development was the EBTA, SFBTA and SOL World Community’s support. I had constant access to resources and immediate feedback from Solution Focused Practitioners whenever I needed one. My work has been recognized as meaningful, so the communities have enabled me to participate in training and conference in the US and in Hungary. I cannot find the right gratitude words to express what difference this has made to my professional standing, so I didn’t say it in words, but have showed it in action by opening the Ribalon Institute. All the above named and unnamed people have contributed to it.

What is coming next, is another year of extensive training for a Solution Focused Therapist and attendance in other Solution Focused events that currently I can’t tell how many will be. Anyhow, I believe I’ll be learning for life and in the end, my best teachers will be my clients. If things continue this way, you’ll be able to read about it as it happens.

It has been a long and arduous time and I’ve enjoyed every minute of it.

So my dear readers, proudly to present a marvellous journey that has escalated in a certificate paper. In case you’d ask.

porridge

Good and lasting results don’t come overnight. It takes time to be able to perform and produce something meaningful. Like a good porridge for example.

Crazy people go into therapy. Even more crazy people offer it.

Dear reader

Rumour has it people, interested in psychotherapy, psychology, etc. have big issues themselves and apply to study these sciences in order to resolve their own personal problems. Don’t know whether this is universal stereotype, it certainly is a common one in my country. I’ve also been labelled as »she’s into therapy because she needs one« from people who are jealous or have their own issues and feel threatened by my success. Not being bothered by these, I just sit back and let the karma do its thing.

However, digging a bit deeper, there is something in there. Many (or even most?) profound therapists and psychotherapists have gone through all sorts of personal tragedies themselves. Like for example Milton H. Erickson and Virginia Satir, who’ve been great inspiration for solution focused pioneers back in 1970’s and 1980’s. You might say that they developed their therapy approaches because they wanted to help themselves. But you know what? They were brave, very brave. They learned from their circumstances and more, they used it as a means to find a tool that would be accessible to others as well. They made a step forward, from their lowest point to a selfless sharing. Maybe that’s even why they became so influential and famous – because they spoke from experience. Their »I know what it’s like« actually meant they really knew. Who could better understand your situation than the one who’s experienced it him/herself, or at least was in a similar one at one point of his/her life? Also seeking help when needed is an act about great courage. People who don’t have the courage, make remarks. People who do, take actions.

As you probably know the proverb that goes something like “is not so much about who never fails, but it’s more about how many times they managed to get up”. Well that’s exactly that. I know I would only trust a person who speaks what he/she’s actually experienced and/or about what he/she truly understands. Would not add any value and validity, if his/her example was different than words. Or if it was just “a nice thing to say” or tons of beautiful speaches and advice I didn’t ask for. Maybe that’s a bit difficult to relate to, but I’m sure you have experienced a moment that you felt bonded to someone, simply because of her/his charisma, energy, warmth, that something about that person and you felt this person has something for you to take, and you have something you want to give back. Or pass it on. You felt comfortable together and even though you might not remember what the other did or said, you would evaluate your time spent together useful and pleasant. I dare to say that most of my clients come to me (or keep coming) because they feel related to me. To my basic being, not my qualification, not my education, expertise, whatever. We bond and that’s the first basic ground that predicts good work we could do together.

So maybe partly, the stereotype is true. As it is with most prejudice – they often contain at least some seed of the truth. But even though it may be true, the evil tongues fail to acknowledge that most great therapists, psychotherapists, psychologists, even coaches and trainers were those who had HAD personal experience of a very difficult situation AND were brave, modest, selfless enough to be able to share their experience and their learning from it with others in order to make it less difficult for some. At least that’s what they are hoping for. I know that’s what I’m hoping for.

nightsky

A nightsky on my journey back home from American training and conference. See “a fierce journey” article for what the overall travel looked like.

A Word About Trust

Dear reader,

Is it easy to trust? Do you sometimes feel that you should and could trust someone or something, but under certain conditions, like be aware even though you trust and at the same time make your own assumptions, just in case something unexpected might happen? You know – not to be disappointed if it doesn’t work out?

Trust is simple. And because it is simple in theory, it is tremendously difficult in practice. I’ve seen several clients this week and some of them were already in their following sessions. It was only natural of course that a question of effect has come in sight. I always try to do a good job, believing if you decide to do it, do it well or if you cannot do it the best way it can be done, drop it or don’t even go there if you are not going to do it properly. Perfectionism?

Since I’m a beginner, I do not have many reference points to take refuge in, so I’m working in the dark. I have several clients whose best hopes are finding motivation and energy to finish their studies or prepare for their exams (it is currently the exam period at our university). So we do “At your best” scenarios in order to create possible context and hence add to possible behaviour patterns. I had no idea whether what we did has been useful for them, and one day, sitting in front of my laptop, I so much wished I could read/watch some similar session from experienced SF therapist so I could see if I’m moving in the right direction. It was only a brief thought and then I had other stuff to do.

Also later that day, I did some reflection and wondered whether others doing Brief Therapy encounter the same dilemmas as I do or am I just wandering in a fog, because I’m alone in this. Quietly asked for some sign that would tell me where I was and whether I’m moving or just standing. The sign came to me in a form of transcribed “At your best” session I accidentally found when browsing the internet. And another one, an interview with a well-respected therapist confirming I was not alone. The article in a book The Art of Solution Focused Therapy (2009) confirmed that others had similar or same dilemmas as I currently have and that this is part of making progress. It may sound banal, but it’s not, because I found it now, not before, and I needed it now. I realized I had to give up the struggle and all the stress fearing something might go wrong. Instead I had to let go of worries and welcome the signs, trusting they will come. And they did.

Then I remembered I’ve done this before – let go and trust. By letting go I don’t mean that you don’t have to do anything, quite the opposite, you are very active! What you let go is the worry of HOW you are going to make/do it. You trust that the path will emerge itself. And it does if you trust. I’m not sure if this can be learned, but it certainly is possible (even though I still constantly fall out of this state and begin to struggle and doubt again and again). Several years ago as my husband and I were considering getting a new car, because our old one was in its last bits of being alive. I don’t care much about cars, but I’ve always favoured Peugeot 206 (old model). I trusted this will be my dream car one day, it was just the fact. I was not bothered why and how at all. We got an orange one and didn’t even look for it very much, so I’m proudly driving my dream car now and it is indeed a really nice car. Silly I know, but let a child have some fun.

Another story, happened about one year later in 2011: I was in the last stage of writing my diploma thesis. Those of you who’ve done it know, it is hard work and takes much time and efforts. I was no different. I was writing my thesis for 9 months, and it was a fine piece of work that was later awarded with the highest prize for academic achievements at my university. But during the process of writing of course I thought it is going nowhere and it is taking forever and I just want this to be over … blabla. Then, realising I was almost there and finishing it will mean a certain breaking point in my life, as it will mean that the period of my student life will come to an end (I didn’t even think about continuing studying on doctoral level), I should reward myself with something I’ll remember for good. And since the reward will be meaningful, I should put myself together and finish my work in a way that it will justify the award. As a child I wanted to play a piano and even learned to play it myself, but my family couldn’t afford it and I refused to have the electric one, because it’s just not real sound, so I played violin, as I’ve told you before. But the dream remained, and as a child I promised myself that one day I’ll have a piano, a grand piano.

So maybe the time was right for this dream to come true. But you know, these things cost a fortune and it is really difficult to find the right one (the instrument finds you, not any instrument will do, but it has to be “yours” and has to feel like a part of you – to complete you. I trusted it will be there when I finish my thesis. How and what and when exactly was left to the process. So when the time was right we found a maestro who had it custom made for me. I can remember as if it were yesterday when I first played it, it was still in maestro’s workshop and the piano didn’t even have the cover and all. I knew he was mine the moment my fingers touched his keyboard. It has a really warm and gentle sound, I wouldn’t trade it for any other piano in the world. The thing is, by sharing these two stories I remembered I’ve trusted before and sort of miracles have happened.

Guess when you make a wish and the wish is right for you and you really want this with pure intentions, it will happen in the way that is right for you. I know this may sound like a pink fairy tale, I’m sorry for that. It may be so, but the ugly truth is, that this moments are rare and it is really difficult to let go. But it can be done. So today I trust my work that it will do good, because my intentions are pure and I’m really curious about the solutions my clients will come up with. But I have absolutely no intention to do this instead of them or to have any doubts in their abilities, because they can do it way better than anyone else.

sulci

The photo was taken on the day the piano came to us and moved in. I remember playing till 3 o’clock in that morning.

What’s in it for me? (what to expect in a SF session?)

This is said to be one of the most important sentences for an individual when engaging someone in collaboration, a dialogue or a new relationship (either personal or professional). Although I do not completely agree with this, as I still believe that some things just do not have selfish or self-centred aims, it looks like a suitable starting point for this post. So dear reader,

If you are interested in Brief Therapy or Coaching with me, here’s what to expect in a Solution Focused session.

I believe, you have a good reason to come. You want some kind of a change. However you don’t have to know it in detail, a wish or a thought will do. Many people don’t know exactly what or why, they just know or sense they want to see some changes or something different. As mentioned in previous posts, any kind of issues or challenges might be addressed within this approach. So whatever is on your mind that you want to discuss, change, resolve, observe, think about or share, you are welcome. What we will do is that we will think through it in a solution focused way, us both being on the same site. Although I’m about to be a future licensed therapist, I’m not acting as an expert, but rather as a facilitator even though I have knowledge and expertise. This means that our relationship is based upon not-knowing. I don’t know what the best is for you so I will not tell you what you could or should do. You and only you are the expert of your life.

There are two simple rules in our conversation: I’m 100 percent responsible for asking questions that produce useful answers. And you take 100 percent credit for each useful answer. It is that simple to understand, however not so easy to perform (this is why I’m in the learning process, because if this were to be easy, no one would have to learn and practise it!).

Prior to the session you already might notice some differences. This is often the case, as a therapeutic or coaching process already starts when considering booking a session. We might talk about this. Prior to the session you might be interested in issues concerning privacy and other professional settings. I’m committed to EBTA Code of ethics (http://blog.ebta.nu/the-solution-focused-modell) and am subject to supervision in order to constantly improve myself as a therapist trainee. Therefore I’ll ask you for your permission to record the session for my supervisors. You may decline, of course. However my supervisors are not interested in content, but in my work (what my focus was on and what kind of questions I used, hence what I could do better and what I did well).

Usually the session lasts approximately one hour. About the following sessions, I rely on you to know when to stop meeting. As it is brief therapy, it is not meant to be a long term process, but I can’t tell at the moment the average number of sessions, because I don’t have enough sessions behind me to gather a proper sample from which reliable conclusions would be possible.

The effects may be immediate or shortly after the session. You’ll see it for yourself. At the end of a session I might give you some appreciative feedback about what I’ve noticed during the session. There will be no advice or goals, therefore you cannot “fail” or disappoint anyone (not yourself nor me, as there is no “homework”). I trust you will find your way and I’ll help you discover it.

How does that sound?

sunset

This photo was taken somewhere above France, as I was flying home from Barcelona conference and had first thought about this post.